iBet uBet web content aggregator. Adding the entire web to your favor.
Link to original content: https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-09
15:58:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:58:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:58:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:58:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
15:58:15 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:15 <trackbot> Date: 09 January 2013
15:58:41 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:58:41 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus ←
15:58:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
15:59:18 <AndyS> zakim, code?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, code? ←
15:59:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS ←
16:00:21 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:00:21 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS ←
16:00:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
16:00:40 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:00:40 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS ←
16:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
16:00:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:00:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus ←
16:00:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
16:00:50 <SteveH_> I can hear andy...
Steve Harris: I can hear andy... ←
16:01:57 <yvesr> zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:01:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr ←
16:01:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
16:02:54 <Guus> zakim, this is rdf
Guus Schreiber: zakim, this is rdf ←
16:02:54 <Zakim> ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:03:03 <Zakim> +??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←
16:03:07 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone? ←
16:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6 ←
16:03:13 <markus> zaki, ??P6 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zaki, ??P6 is me ←
16:03:16 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
16:03:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:03:17 <markus> zakim, ??P6 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P6 is me ←
16:03:18 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
16:03:22 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P11
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P11 ←
16:03:22 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
16:03:27 <Guus> zakim, +31.20 is me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, +31.20 is me ←
16:03:27 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
16:03:34 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P26 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P26 is me ←
16:03:34 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
16:04:01 <AZ> Zakim, +081165aabb is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, +081165aabb is me ←
16:04:01 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
16:04:30 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:04:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus ←
16:04:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
16:04:34 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.874.aacc ←
16:04:41 <cgreer> zakim, aacc is me
Charles Greer: zakim, aacc is me ←
16:04:41 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it ←
16:05:06 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P12 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P12 is me ←
16:05:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
16:06:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
16:06:25 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
16:06:25 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
16:06:40 <cgreer> scribenick: cgreer
(Scribe set to Charles Greer)
16:07:13 <cgreer> topic: admin
16:07:56 <cgreer> topic: open actions
16:09:21 <cgreer> Topic: Turtle
16:09:23 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
16:09:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:09:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:09:29 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:09:41 <sandro> (Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry)
Sandro Hawke: (Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry) ←
16:10:05 <cgreer> Guus: We have three open issues still for Turtle. First is ISSUE-95.
Guus Schreiber: We have three open issues still for Turtle. First is ISSUE-95. ←
16:11:02 <cgreer> ericp: I need to keep this in mind and follow up. I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I need to keep this in mind and follow up. I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness. ←
16:11:54 <Guus> RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19
RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19 ←
16:12:34 <cgreer> Guus: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100.
Guus Schreiber: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100. ←
16:14:12 <cgreer> Sandro: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue.
Sandro Hawke: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue. ←
16:14:17 <AZ> is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML?
Antoine Zimmermann: is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML? ←
16:15:46 <sandro> action-191?
16:15:46 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN ←
16:15:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191 ←
16:16:36 <cgreer> ericp: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly. ←
16:16:49 <cgreer> gkellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph
Gregg Kellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph ←
16:17:13 <cgreer> gkellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that.
Gregg Kellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that. ←
16:17:52 <cgreer> Guus: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it.
Guus Schreiber: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it. ←
16:18:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.992.aadd ←
16:18:37 <cgreer> Guus: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191
Guus Schreiber: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191 ←
16:18:49 <cgreer> Subtopic: Well-formed lists
16:19:09 <cgreer> Sandro: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle.
Sandro Hawke: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle. ←
16:19:34 <cgreer> Sandro: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle.
Sandro Hawke: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle. ←
16:19:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaee ←
16:19:59 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aaee is me ←
16:19:59 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
16:20:12 <cgreer> ericp: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists? ←
16:20:12 <davidwood> Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection. Will try to monitor, though. Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention.
David Wood: Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection. Will try to monitor, though. Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention. ←
16:20:24 <cgreer> Sandro: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here.
Sandro Hawke: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here. ←
16:20:31 <sandro> sandro: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle
Sandro Hawke: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:52 <cgreer> Guus: This in other words doesn't affect turtle.
Guus Schreiber: This in other words doesn't affect turtle. ←
16:21:12 <ericP> i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95 ←
16:22:15 <cgreer> ericp: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html ←
16:22:35 <cgreer> ericp: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue. ←
16:22:51 <cgreer> Guus: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are.
Guus Schreiber: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are. ←
16:23:07 <sandro> cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing....
Sandro Hawke: cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing.... ←
16:23:57 <cgreer> Guus: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts.
Guus Schreiber: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts. ←
16:24:06 <cgreer> ericp: And we did that before publication.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: And we did that before publication. ←
16:24:19 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:24:21 <Zakim> +GavinC
Zakim IRC Bot: +GavinC ←
16:24:30 <sandro> GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them.
Sandro Hawke: GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them. ←
16:25:15 <cgreer> Sandro: Can I propse we not use CSS for "feature at risk?"
Sandro Hawke: Can I propose we not use CSS for "feature at risk?" ←
16:25:26 <cgreer> s/propse/propose
16:25:40 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:25:40 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:27:09 <sandro> action: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk
ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk ←
16:27:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16]. ←
16:27:57 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar
Eric Prud'hommeaux: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar ←
16:29:32 <cgreer> Guus: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk"
Guus Schreiber: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk" ←
16:30:12 <cgreer> ericp: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings. ←
16:30:34 <cgreer> gavinc: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk.
Gavin Carothers: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk. ←
16:31:43 <ericP> PROPOSAL: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
PROPOSED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base ←
16:32:14 <cgreer> Guus: What determines whether this feature is in or out? Implementation?
Guus Schreiber: What determines whether this feature is in or out? Implementation? ←
16:32:26 <cgreer> ericp: Feedback is invited.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Feedback is invited. ←
16:32:48 <cgreer> Guus: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK?
Guus Schreiber: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK? ←
16:32:52 <cgreer> Sandro: Yes
Sandro Hawke: Yes ←
16:32:59 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:32:59 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:33:01 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:33:03 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:33:04 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
16:33:06 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:33:12 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:33:12 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:33:13 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:33:14 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:33:21 <ericP> RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base ←
16:33:30 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:34:17 <cgreer> Guus: A few more issues in my message... OK HTML5 link.
Guus Schreiber: A few more issues in my message... OK HTML5 link. ←
16:34:29 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
16:34:36 <cgreer> ... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to
... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to ←
16:34:38 <Zakim> +??P52
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52 ←
16:34:42 <cgreer> Just lost audio.
Just lost audio. ←
16:35:11 <Zakim> +cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer ←
16:35:29 <ericP> Guus: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section
Guus Schreiber: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:35:53 <ericP> ... the link is regarding script tags
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the link is regarding script tags ←
16:36:04 <cgreer> Guus: I'm unclear as to the status of this document.
Guus Schreiber: I'm unclear as to the status of this document. ←
16:36:07 <gavinc> gavinc: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug.
Gavin Carothers: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug. [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
16:36:35 <cgreer> Sandro: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK.
Sandro Hawke: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK. ←
16:37:03 <cgreer> gavinc: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft.
Gavin Carothers: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft. ←
16:37:21 <cgreer> Guus: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years.
Guus Schreiber: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years. ←
16:37:46 <cgreer> ivan: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do.
Ivan Herman: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do. ←
16:37:56 <cgreer> gavinc: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft?
Gavin Carothers: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft? ←
16:38:28 <cgreer> ericp: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says. ←
16:38:54 <ivan> http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
Ivan Herman: http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/ ←
16:38:58 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element
Gregg Kellogg: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element ←
16:39:06 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/ ←
16:39:27 <cgreer> gavinc: I'll get the link fixed.
Gavin Carothers: I'll get the link fixed. ←
16:39:43 <cgreer> Guus: What about the date of the documents?
Guus Schreiber: What about the date of the documents? ←
16:40:51 <cgreer> sandro: When you check in, update the date.
Sandro Hawke: When you check in, update the date. ←
16:41:10 <cgreer> ericp: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference. ←
16:41:20 <cgreer> Guus: It would be good to send request Friday.
Guus Schreiber: It would be good to send request Friday. ←
16:41:26 <cgreer> ... Can you do this in next 24 hours?
... Can you do this in next 24 hours? ←
16:41:30 <cgreer> gavinc: Sure.
Gavin Carothers: Sure. ←
16:41:48 <cgreer> subtopic: Coverage of Turtle Tests
16:42:30 <cgreer> ericp: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all ←
16:42:52 <cgreer> ... In the process I created a set of minimal tests. One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that.
... In the process I created a set of minimal tests. One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that. ←
16:43:01 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html
Eric Prud'hommeaux: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html ←
16:43:50 <cgreer> ericp: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features) ←
16:44:16 <cgreer> ericp: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests. ←
16:44:41 <cgreer> ericp: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing. ←
16:44:41 <gavinc> "minimal tests?"
Gavin Carothers: "minimal tests?" ←
16:44:54 <AndyS> where are the minimal tests as a suite online?
Andy Seaborne: where are the minimal tests as a suite online? ←
16:44:58 <cgreer> ... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while.
... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while. ←
16:45:14 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:45:15 <cgreer> sandro: What's the advantage of having both?
Sandro Hawke: What's the advantage of not having both? ←
16:45:25 <cgreer> s/having/not having/
16:45:58 <cgreer> ericp: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests,
Eric Prud'hommeaux: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests, ←
16:46:18 <cgreer> ... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely.
... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely. ←
16:46:22 <gavinc> That's a failure to implement Turtle :P
Gavin Carothers: That's a failure to implement Turtle :P ←
16:46:39 <cgreer> Sandro: I'd rather have both sets of tests.
Sandro Hawke: I'd rather have both sets of tests. ←
16:46:58 <cgreer> ericp: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it. ←
16:47:05 <gavinc> Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language.
Gavin Carothers: Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language. ←
16:47:31 <cgreer> ... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set.
... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set. ←
16:48:01 <cgreer> Sandro: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow.
Sandro Hawke: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow. ←
16:48:21 <cgreer> ericp: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them. ←
16:48:50 <cgreer> ... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test.
... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test. ←
16:48:57 <gavinc> Turtle is VERY VERY tiny
Gavin Carothers: Turtle is VERY VERY tiny ←
16:49:03 <cgreer> Sandro: I don't think this will matter for turtle. We expect full implementations.
Sandro Hawke: I don't think this will matter for turtle. We expect full implementations. ←
16:49:23 <gavinc> I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P
Gavin Carothers: I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P ←
16:49:30 <cgreer> ericp: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version. ←
16:50:05 <cgreer> gkellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite.
Gregg Kellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite. ←
16:50:14 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:50:30 <cgreer> gkellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports.
Gregg Kellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports. ←
16:50:51 <cgreer> Sandro: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system
Sandro Hawke: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system ←
16:51:19 <cgreer> gkellogg: Interaction tests are useful. Beyond minimal feature tests.
Gregg Kellogg: Interaction tests are useful. Beyond minimal feature tests. ←
16:51:32 <cgreer> ericp: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction. ←
16:52:07 <AndyS> No test suite is complete. Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same.
Andy Seaborne: No test suite is complete. Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same. ←
16:52:46 <cgreer> gkellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures. If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination.
Gregg Kellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures. If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination. ←
16:52:57 <cgreer> ericp: We can do that same thing here.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: We can do that same thing here. ←
16:53:11 <PatH> Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late.
Patrick Hayes: Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late. ←
16:53:17 <sandro> gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser. :-)
Sandro Hawke: gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser. :-) ←
16:53:32 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:53:35 <cgreer> Guus: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request.
Guus Schreiber: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request. ←
16:53:43 <AndyS> q+ to ask where the minimal suite is
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask where the minimal suite is ←
16:54:15 <gavinc> it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle
Gavin Carothers: it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle ←
16:54:36 <AndyS> So I can't execute it. Hmm.
Andy Seaborne: So I can't execute it. Hmm. ←
16:55:07 <sandro> checked in with Turtle?
Sandro Hawke: checked in with Turtle? ←
16:55:27 <cgreer> gavinc: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite?
Gavin Carothers: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite? ←
16:55:50 <cgreer> ericp: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports. ←
16:55:57 <cgreer> gavinc: Why do we have to do that?
Gavin Carothers: Why do we have to do that? ←
16:56:17 <cgreer> ericp: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings. ←
16:56:36 <cgreer> sandro: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means.
Sandro Hawke: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means. ←
16:57:05 <cgreer> ericp: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one. ←
16:57:21 <cgreer> sandro: I agree that it's good to have a distinction.
Sandro Hawke: I agree that it's good to have a distinction. ←
16:57:52 <cgreer> gkellogg: Two manifests would help. In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests.
Gregg Kellogg: Two manifests would help. In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests. ←
16:58:08 <cgreer> ... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests.
... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests. ←
16:58:38 <cgreer> ... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones.
... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones. ←
16:59:04 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:59:20 <cgreer> ... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical. We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones.
... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical. We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones. ←
17:00:34 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:00:45 <ericP> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column) ←
17:01:08 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
17:03:03 <gavinc> ... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete?
Gavin Carothers: ... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete? ←
17:03:30 <cgreer> sandro: all the approved test should be in the transition request.
Sandro Hawke: all the approved test should be in the transition request. ←
17:03:56 <gkellogg> q-
Gregg Kellogg: q- ←
17:04:03 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
17:04:03 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is ←
17:04:49 <cgreer> ericp: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests? ←
17:05:21 <cgreer> davidwood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests.
David Wood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests. ←
17:05:22 <AndyS> the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct.
Andy Seaborne: the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct. ←
17:05:47 <cgreer> ericp: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them. ←
17:06:08 <cgreer> davidwood: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests.
Sandro Hawke: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests. ←
17:06:29 <cgreer> ... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too.
... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too. ←
17:06:29 <gavinc> s/davidwood/sandro
17:06:37 <cgreer> oops
oops ←
17:07:16 <cgreer> ericp: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting. ←
17:08:18 <cgreer> I'll get it back from Gavin later.
I'll get it back from Gavin later. ←
17:09:18 <cgreer> ericp: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests? ←
17:09:30 <cgreer> ... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies
... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies ←
17:09:31 <gavinc> No. We don't do that.
Gavin Carothers: No. We don't do that. ←
17:10:10 <cgreer> gkellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests. eval tests are a superset of syntax tests. If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean?
Gregg Kellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests. eval tests are a superset of syntax tests. If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean? ←
17:10:23 <AndyS> There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere. May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests.
Andy Seaborne: There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere. May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests. ←
17:10:28 <cgreer> gkellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is.
Gregg Kellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is. ←
17:10:33 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
17:11:15 <cgreer> ivan: We have a bunch of other things to discuss. Testing details should be out of scope for telecon.
Ivan Herman: We have a bunch of other things to discuss. Testing details should be out of scope for telecon. ←
17:11:25 <gkellogg> agree with Ivan
Gregg Kellogg: agree with Ivan ←
17:12:21 <cgreer> ivan: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG)
Ivan Herman: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG) ←
17:13:05 <cgreer> Guus: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done. There are some issues in cleanup tasks.
Guus Schreiber: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done. There are some issues in cleanup tasks. ←
17:13:16 <cgreer> .. We should mainly be completing the documents.
.. We should mainly be completing the documents. ←
17:13:29 <AndyS> me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we?
Andy Seaborne: me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we? ←
17:13:29 <cgreer> ivan: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up.
Ivan Herman: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up. ←
17:14:46 <cgreer> I just scribed last time :)
I just scribed last time :) ←
17:14:50 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:14:52 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
17:14:53 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:14:55 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:14:57 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
17:14:57 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:14:58 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:15:00 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
17:15:02 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
17:15:04 <markus> bye
Markus Lanthaler: bye ←
17:15:05 <Zakim> -GavinC
Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC ←
17:15:07 <Zakim> -markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -markus ←
17:15:08 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
17:15:15 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
17:15:36 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is here? ←
17:15:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd ←
17:15:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP ←
17:15:47 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect guus
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please disconnect guus ←
17:15:47 <Zakim> Guus is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus is being disconnected ←
17:15:48 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:15:51 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect aadd
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please disconnect aadd ←
17:15:51 <Zakim> +1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: +1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected ←
17:15:52 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
17:15:52 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri, ←
17:15:52 <Zakim> ... PatH, GavinC, pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatH, GavinC, pchampin ←
17:19:11 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting ←
17:19:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
17:19:11 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is ←
17:19:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
17:19:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot ←
17:19:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
17:19:20 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : ←
17:19:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1]
ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1] ←
17:19:20 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09 ←
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This revision (#2) generated 2013-01-16 16:06:19 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None