Talk:Confucianism

Gods

The paragraph on worship of gods (shen) is odd and needs to be rewritten. I'm not sure why worship of ancestors is tagged on the end of the paragraph, as if it is constructing a different narrative out of ancestral worship and sacrifices into the worship of gods. It simply ignores the famous Confucian saying to his disciple "respect ghosts and gods, but keep them at a distance" (敬鬼神而远之) [1] concentrating on the human world - [2] or a comment by someone in the Analects: "Master does not comment on bizzarre, the violent, the chaotic, and the spirits (子不语怪力乱神) [3], Confucian attitude to gods/spirits is more nuanced than what is made out in the paragraph. Hzh (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

This is because there is another religion in China Taoism

At the same time, the form of Taoism was 方仙道. They were good at witchcraft and divination, and promoted their ideas through instructions from ghosts and gods. Confucius hoped that these matters should be limited to religious rituals and not interfere with social operations.

Confucius's attitude towards ghosts and gods is positive. He is willing to discuss it because he believes in ghosts and gods. However, the importance is far less than the way people get along with each other. (Respect ghosts and gods and stay away from them) (Zi Buyu)

Religious worship corresponds to gods in heaven, gods on earth, ancestors or heroic spirits. Each status limits the objects of worship, thus flaunting the legitimacy of different class rule. Confucius valued "etiquette" and believed that society lost order because everyone could not abide by etiquette.Picnic11219 (talk) 09:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

World Religions reference

I added a page number needed for the World Religions reference added by GoutComplex. This reference replaced a citation needed for the claim "In the Western world, the character for water is often used as a symbol for Confucianism". I have looked at the book and do not see that claim being made. I wanted to check with other editors who might have access to it to see if I'm missing something. Thanks. Retinalsummer (talk) 10:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I note that GoutComplex has edited the citation to suggest that because the character for water is depicted on the cover of the book in question, then this alone counts as a reliable source for the claim. This is not how referencing works, so I have removed the reference. If no reliable reference is forthcoming, I will remove the claim entirely. Retinalsummer (talk) 13:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Seems like there are some books written in English that say water is a symbol of Confucianism - [4][5][6][7]. Not the most academically sound sources, and the idea seems a bit garbled, don't know how it got started. But this is something worth mentioning if only because there will be people who get confused when they read such information in books or other websites. However, It does need better-sourced clarification. Hzh (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2023

In the later dynasties, more emphasis was placed on the virtue of chastity. The Song dynasty Confucian Cheng Yi stated that: "To starve to death is a small matter, but to lose one's chastity is a great matter."[137] It was during the Song Dynasty that the value of chastity was so severe, Confucian scholars criminalized the remarriage of widows. Chaste widows went on to be revered and memorialized during the Ming and Qing periods.The principle of chaste widowhood was made an official institution during the Ming Dynasty. This "cult of chastity" accordingly condemned many widows to poverty and loneliness by placing a social stigma on remarriage.[135] Though the repercussions for widows at times went beyond poverty and loneliness, as for some the preservation of chastity resulted in suicide. The ideal of a chaste widow became an extremely high honor and esteem, especially for a woman who chose to end her life after her husband’s death. Many instances of such acts were recorded in, Biographies of Virtuous Women, “a collection of stories of women who distinguished themselves by committing suicide after their husband’s deaths to guard their chastity and purity”. Though it can be contested whether all these instances can be deemed self-sacrificing for the virtue of chastity, as it became common practice for women to be forced to commit suicide after their husband’s death. This resulted from the honor which chaste widowhood garnered, lending itself to the husband's family as well as his clan or village.

Account13 (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

References

User:Account13, you've already edited the article directly. This edit request is no longer necessary. Discussion about the material in question can take place here or follow the usual WP:BRD cycle. Folly Mox (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

Change `It's` -> `Its` in `It's literal meaning in modern Chinese is "scholar", "learned", or "refined man"` Inlieuofleu (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Loafiewa (talk) 13:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Confusion in paragraph 4

The first sentence of the fourth paragraph reads:

"In religious Confucianism, liturgy (called 儒; rú, or sometimes 正统; 正統; zhèngtǒng, meaning 'orthopraxy') led by Confucian priests or "sages of rites" (礼生; 禮生; lǐshēng) to worship the gods in public and ancestral Chinese temples is preferred on certain occasions, by Confucian religious groups and for civil religious rites, over Taoist or popular ritual."

This sentence does not make any sense whatsoever. I don't even know what it is supposed to mean to edit it and make it make sense. If someone could try and decipher this and make it better, that would be good.

FA Myn J (talk) 02:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

User:FA Myn J, that material appears in a more understandable phrasing in the section § Organisation and liturgy, where it is given as Chinese folk religious temples and kinship ancestral shrines may, on peculiar occasions, choose Confucian liturgy (called 儒; rú or 正統 (zhèngtǒng; 'orthopraxy') led by Confucian ritual masters (禮生; lǐshēng) to worship the gods, instead of Taoist or popular ritual. Although it's still all mixed up, you can kind of get a feel for its intended meaning. The prior wording seemed to be implying that Religious Confucianists sometimes prefer Religious Confucianist rituals over rituals from other traditions, which seems believable.

Anyway I removed the bit from paragraph four in the lead, where it is an unnecessary detail and also doesn't make sense. Thanks for bringing this up. I low key hate this article and it's been on my todo list forever, but I don't know that I'll ever have the patience to read through sufficient materials about Confucianism to rewrite it. Folly Mox (talk) 03:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't see that later in the article I guess. I genuinely read that sentence 15 times trying to figure out what it meant, so thank you for the help. FA Myn J (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Minor typo

Under the section on widows, the start of one sentence is not capitalized. 24.16.99.54 (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

"Confucianism and other schools of thought" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Confucianism and other schools of thought has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 31 § Confucianism and other schools of thought until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Mia Madison Row! As some background information for Wikipedia's treatment of this topic that may be helpful for your assignment, I'll disclose first off that it's my position as an Early China person that this article could greatly benefit from a fundamental rewrite.

If you're writing about Confucianism from a religious perspective (already overemphasized in the article), you might want to keep in mind that there is no academic consensus that Confucianism should be called a religion. If you have Wikipedia Library access, you should be able to read this 2015 academic dual book review: Jochim, Christian (2015). "Reviewed works: Confucianism as Religion: Controversies and Consequences, written by Yong Chen; Confucianism as a World Religion: Contested Histories and Contemporary Realities, written by Anna Sun". Review of Religion and Chinese Society. 2 (2): 265–270. doi:10.1163/22143955-00202007. (If you can read Chinese, you might also want to check out Chinese Wikipedia's article section :zh:儒教 § 儒教是否宗教的各種觀點, "Various viewpoints on whether Confucianism is a religion".)

We do have two related articles Religious Confucianism and Confucian ritual religion (very underdeveloped!) that could benefit from a purely Religious Studies standpoint.

Last year, I took part in a conversation at Talk:Han dynasty § "Confucianism" as a religion during this period about the appropriateness of listing "Confucianism" in the infobox of that article. The conversation has some good background information (part of the problem is that the term "Confucianism" conflates three distinct but related Chinese words). I also posted a list of possible sources for improving the related article Confucius recently at Talk:Confucius § Potential sources, most or all of which should be accessible through the Wikipedia Library now that Brill is working again.

@Ian (Wiki Ed): for a course on world religions, the article Religious Confucianism might be a better target for improvement than Confucianism, which already overemphasizes religious aspects at the expense of political, philosophical, literary, and historical lenses. Folly Mox (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

[P]art of the problem is that the term "Confucianism" conflates three distinct but related Chinese words actually understates it quite a bit: Makeham (2008) gives twenty-five examples of Chinese terms in the conceptual space that are or have been translated as "Confucian" or "Confucianis[m/t]". See Makeham, John (2008). Lost Soul: “Confucianism” in Contemporary Chinese Academic Discourse. Harvard–Yenching Institute Monographs, no. 64. Harvard University Press. p. 5–6 n. 11. doi:10.1163/9781684170487_002. ISBN 9781684170487.

For an extremely brief and much less technical overview of some of the domain issues inherent to a working definition of "Confucianism" – without even beginning to address the question of whether or not it can be a "religion" – have a quick look at Goldin, Paul R. (2011). "Introduction: What Confucianism is and what Confucianism is not". Confucianism. Ancient Philosophies Series. Durham: Acumen. pp. 1–6. ISBN 9781844654369. TWL link via Cambridge University Press. Folly Mox (talk) 10:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Whoops I guess I don't understand how Wiki Ed works. Pinging Gerdesk as instructor to review this choice of target article for a religious studies course (briefest: as a subject matter expert I recommend Religious Confucianism instead). Folly Mox (talk) 10:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)