Talk:Bermondsey

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Untitled

The following is coming from Talk:Bermondsey: I have written a timeline of the history of Bermondsey: http://www.bermondseyhistory.com/ Is it appropriate to like to this work here? -- User:Robert Brook --- Absolutely. But I've taken the liberty of entering a stub just in case someone marks the article for deletion on grounds of emptiness. Please feel free to replace it with something more substantial. User:David Parker

Millwall "has never been located in Bermondsey" - it is currently in the neighbourhood known as South Bermondsey, adjacent to South Bermondsey train station.

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Bermondsey also gained the first underground tube railway, the Tower Subway of 1869-1870. This was supplanted in 1894 by Tower Bridge, which links the westernmost edge of Bermondsey to the City of London. - if Tower Bridge is the western border of Bermondsey the Tower Subway can't be in Bermondsey.

WRONG: The Tower Subway had a hauled cart on a track, which was prone to break down, so was removed and became a pedestrian tunnel; this hardly constitutes a 'tube railway' in the sense understood even at that time. In the period between 1870 and 1894 there was no local authority called 'Bermondsey' other than the 'civil parish' created under the 1855 Metropolis Management Act. The area between St Saviour's / Dockhead was a parish 'union' ('District Board of Works') between the Southwark parishes of St Olave's, St John-Horsleydown and St Thomas. In 1899 the parishes of Southwark St Olave and St Thomas were combined as a civil Parish. Both were known as 'St Olave's'. Sortly after these were placed in the Metro Boro of Bermondsey, which explains why some believe they have always been in something called 'Bermondsey' today. An example; the 1571 Seal of the St Olave grammar school is inscribed "The Seal of the Free School of the Parishioners of St Olave's Southwark, Found by Q Elz" 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)[reply]

WRONG; Definitions of 'Bermondsey' are anachronistic, and Tower Bridge has never been a boundary of anything. The site of the Tower Subway, when used as a passenger system, wasn't in the 'Metropolitan Borough of Bermondsey', but St Olave's, as that only existed from 1900 to 1964, as UTC says below. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)[reply]

The Met Boro went further west than Tower Bridge to about as far as Weston Street. There are still a few street signs that have survived since 1965 indicating this. MRSC 20:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

YES: Met Boro boundary went along just behind the eastern side of Borough High Street. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)(Tony S)[reply]

Despite the confusion as to the 'boundaries' of Bermondsey, I think it would be best to include Tower Subway and Hay's Wharf. --Robert 10:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

THE DISCUSSION is confused because of lack of definition of 'Bermondsey' within a specified period. An example is the use of 'Tooley Street', which is part of old Southwark and was in the Metro Boro of Bermondsey for only the first part of the twentieth century. The contribution below is not about anywhere recognisable as the place under discussion at all. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)[reply]

Lets see if i can help clarify things ,ive lived here in Bermondsey all my life and cannot believe you guys marked it as being unsignificant.It runs from South Bermondsey Stn which is also home to our football team MILLWALL FC...NO1 LIKES US ..WE DONT CARE!...THE LIONS FROM THE DEN,2 mins further up the OLD KENT RD famous the world over for featuring as the cheapest RD ...on the Monopoly board.Then we stretch right up to London Bridge,Southwark Cathedral,Borough Market,The Globe Theatre,The Tate Modern Art Gallery,Tooley Street,Wine Cellars,Britain At War Exhibition,The London Dungeons,Open-Top Buses,Thames River Cruise,HMS.Belfast,Tower Bridge and Tower of London,The Engine Rooms,Bermondsey Sq antique market,Shad Thames where Oliver Twist was filmed,Restaurants,Tavernas,Pubs,Were on the route of the annual London Marathon,Guys Hospital Old Operating Theatre,Guys teaching hospital...i could go on selling Bermondsey to you for hours but i think ive said enough to put us on the map where we rightfully belong dont you...i rest my case!

WRONG IN ALL ASSERTIONS: 'The New Den', the ground of Millwall FC, is in the London Borough of Lewisham and previously the Metropolitan Borough of Deptford. Old Kent Road was in Camberwell parish and its succeeding Metropolitan Borough. I have covered the other places in my comments above or in my edit of the article. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)[reply]

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Bermondsey, Surrey

Recently it has been asserted that Bermondsey was historically in the county of Kent.[1] A solid foundation for the argument that Bermondsey was in the historical county of Surrey is the Victoria County History's volume 4 of the history of Surrey, in which the parish of Bermondsey is described.[2] Then there are several further reliable sources that I have to hand, which back this up:

Blair, J., "Frithuwold's kingdom and the origins of Surrey", in Bassett, S. (ed.), The Origins of Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms, Leicester University Press, 1989, pp. 97–107, in which Bermondsey is taken to be part of Surrey in the early 8th century (p. 106). Incidentally, this source has been cited in the article for many years now.
Domesday Book of 1086 lists Bermondsey as part of Surrey – see for example Williams, A. & Martin, G.H. (eds.), Domesday Book A Complete Translation, Penguin, 1992, pp. 72 & 80. Domesday Book is strictly a primary source, but it is unimpeachable here.
Ekwall, E., The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names (4th edn.), Oxford University Press, 1960, p. 39, has Bermondsey in Surrey.
Stenton, F.M., Anglo-Saxon England (3rd edn.), Oxford University Press, 1971, p. 160, puts Bermondsey in Surrey, again in an 8th-century context.
Youngs, F.A. Jr, Guide to the Local Administrative Units of England Volume I: Southern England, Royal Historical Society, 1979, p. 473, states that Bermondsey was part of Surrey until it was transferred to London in 1889.

Among maps, there is the website A Vision of Britain Through Time, which displays the map for Surrey from the HMSO's Boundary Commission Report of 1832, where the location of Bermondsey is clearly within Surrey,[3], as evidenced by comparison with the location of Bermondsey Abbey on a modern Ordnance Survey map;[4] A Vision of Britain Through Time also quotes from John Bartholomew's 1887 Gazetteer of the British Isles as follows: "Bermondsey, par. and ry. sta., Southwark bor., E. Surrey, forming a SE. suburb of London, 627 ac., pop. 86,652 ; extensive wool stores, tanneries, and wharves."[5]

Southwark Council's website has a page on researching family history, from which I quote: "The family history society for the London Borough of Southwark is the East Surrey Family History Society. There may be overlapping interest with neighbouring areas covered by the West Surrey and North-West Kent Family History Societies."[6] I hope that helps. Nortonius (talk) 10:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That seems exhaustive. TheGreaterLondonEditor argued on their talk page that Google Maps, Bing Maps and the Southwark Council support his claim that Bermondsey is in the historical county of Kent, but I don't see that they do. Google Maps, for example, doesn't know the borders of the historical counties and places Bermondsey in Greater London, which of course is correct but doesn't say anything about the historical county either way. The Southwark Council mentions Old Kent Road, but doesn't say anything about county Kent, and I'd expect that road used to lead to Kent and wasn't within Kent. Huon (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, yes I saw TheGreaterLondonEditor talking about online maps that don't show historical county boundaries; and mentioning Southwark Council, which is why I included a page from their website among sources that say, in this case implicitly, that Bermondsey was in Surrey. And, exactly – just as I was driving a few minutes ago along Lewes Road, which is not in Lewes but in Brighton, and leads to Lewes. Similarly, if I wanted to leave Brighton, and therefore Sussex, for London, I would start by driving along the London Road, in Brighton. The same editor claims to know that Bermondsey was in Kent because they're from London; I was born in London and lived there for 33 years but that has nothing to do with it, obviously. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bermondsey,Kent

I do know you want to win this dispute but clearly you are accessing fake websites claiming to be real, when I followed the link my security program warned me about the page's security rating and programming.

TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just double-checked all the external links in Nortonius' post above, and none gave me any warnings. What's the URL of the page you had a problem with?

I'll add that I don't want to "win this dispute" but to have an accurate Wikipedia article. If you can provide reliable sources that state Bermondsey is in Kent, I'll gladly consider them just as I considered those presented by Nortonius. For example, I did try to follow up your comment that "google maps, bing maps and southwark council" confirm it's in Kent but didn't succeed. Some more precision, such as links to the specific web pages that say Bermondsey is in Kent, would help. Huon (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, about not wanting to "win" – the thing is always to present a neutral point of view. If a reliable source or sources were found to support Bermondsey having been in Kent, the article would have to reflect that conflict in a balanced way too. Wikipedia depends entirely on reliable sources. For my part, I have found none that support Kent. Nortonius (talk) 20:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I notice that HMSO's 1832 boundary map for Kent shows that county's nearest approach to Bermondsey was a little west of Greenwich, Deptford and Lewisham, which settlements are shown.[7] In this regard, it is probably worth noting that the site of Surrey Commercial Docks is about a mile east of Bermondsey. Also there is mention of Bermondsey in Jones, B., Kent Hundred Rolls, Kent Archaeological Society, 2007,[8], which gives a transcript and translation of the Hundred Roll for Kent of 1274–75 (search the page for Bermondsey): according to the jurors the abbot of Bermondsey had "the assize of bread and ale and the gallows and the market in the vill of Charlton from the time of the lord King Henry, the present king’s father [i.e. King Henry III, the "present king" being Edward I] and they do not know by what warrant."[9] Charlton was formerly in Kent, but, according to the Annales Monasterii de Bermundeseia, edited by H.R. Luard in 1866, Bermondsey Abbey was given the manor of Charlton by Bishop Robert Bloet of Lincoln in 1093, and Henry III granted the abbey a Monday market and an annual fair at Charlton in 1268 (pp. 428 & 463–4).[10] Those would be the warrants of which the jurors were ignorant. But of course they did not make Charlton part of Surrey, or Bermondsey part of Kent. They merely meant that Bermondsey Abbey had property and rights in Kent, which was quite normal. According to volume 2 of the Victoria County History for Surrey, in 1291 the abbey owned land, rents and rights in the dioceses of Rochester, London, Lincoln, Chichester, Salisbury, Bath and Wells, Winchester, York, Norwich and Worcester.[11] The contemporary Hundred Roll for Surrey does not appear to have survived.[12] Nortonius (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I even asked some of the locals and they said Bermondsey is in kent TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please try posting less because my email account inbox is getting full of your disagreements and I do not have enough time to read them TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And plus I hate that so please stop also by the way I tapped/clicked on the link so you could have gotten on a fake site TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I too have much more interesting things to do than to keep digging up reliable sources on the historical county to which Bermondsey belonged. You can stop those emails from Wikipedia by going to your preferences. Huon asked you previously to clarify which websites appear unsafe to you, but you haven't replied; and, unfortunately, "the locals" do not consitute a reliable source. Since you don't seem to trust any of the sources that have been offered, why not go to a local library and ask a member of staff to help you answer the question, "Was Bermondsey in Kent or Surrey?" – if you find anything useful in a reliable source you could then share the details with us here. Nortonius (talk) 17:01, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

bermondsey,kent

Please do not send me anything or talk about me from 01/02/2018 to the date of 16/02/2018 during that time I will not be able to reply to your comments and enquires because I will be busy

TheGreaterLondonEditor

TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]