Talk:Greece/Archive 12

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Removed ethnic percentages from the infobox

I have removed the ethnic percentages from the infobox because 1) such figures are almost always not worth the trouble, the issue is complex and not suited for inclusion in the infobox and 2) the quoted figures were not to be found in the sources given. Athenean (talk) 08:02, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

1) If it wasn't suitable for inclusion in the infobox, it wouldn't be in the infobox (on the other hand I understand that not every section has to be filled). 2) The quoted figures are clearly stated in pages 7-9 of the given reference (not in percentages, but in population figures).

Apart from this there is no standard trend on what to include in the ethnic groups section of the infobox: In United Kingdom the figures given refer to race while the figures in Spain give figures for citizenship.Hansi667 (talk) 17:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

In Germany and Netherlands the figures given also refer to citizenship in the infobox. One could say that it is a trend to include figures for citizenship in the ethnic groups section.Hansi667 (talk) 17:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think you already understand that it is clearly stated in the infobox field that the entry is about "ethnic groups" not citizens. Therefore it is clear that citizenship is not suitable for inclusion there, as it is different from ethnicity. As far as seeing any trends, you have to get a global WP:CONSENSUS for such a change in the infobox field. Otherwise, the examples you mentioned are just erroneous applications of the infobox. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not strictly stated what could or could not be included in the ethnic groups section. And this is exactly what I wanted to show with the above mentioned examples. Please note that the citizenship figures where in Greece's article for years: they had the figuress of the 2001 census. As soon as I updated the figures, to match the 2011 census, Alexikoua thought it would be bold to erase the figures, without giving any reasonable explanation. Just some WP:OR figures of his. Yet I haven't understood why this data shouldn't be displayed in the infobox, as far as it's properly referenced and disambiguated.Hansi667 (talk) 18:12, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Also note, that Athenean's first removal of the data was not on valid grounds as he stated that the data was not given in the reference, when it is clearly given in pages 7-9 of the reference.Hansi667 (talk) 18:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is not strictly stated what could or could not be included in the ethnic groups section. Yes it is. As long as by definition, ethnic =/= citizen, the entry should be filled with ethnicity data, otherwise it is misleading to include citizenship groups which could have different ethnicity from their stated citizenship. As far as your arguments about Alexikoua and Athenean, they are best suited to reply to them. I am only discussing the field entry of the infobox. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Please explain why Greece's article is any different from the articles of Germany, Netherlands etc that i've mentioned above. Do you think that citizenship figures should be removed from these articles as well? I think it would be be bold to add a parameter in the template to define data such as citizenship and race without any any room left for misunderstanding (although I' ve added a footnote to disambiguate). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hansi667 (talk • contribs)

I don't think you are listening to what I am telling you. Also per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I have no obligation to explain the choices of other editors in other articles. Why don't you go and ask them yourself? I am only interested in applying the correct parameters to this article. I think it would be be bold to add a parameter in the template to define data such as citizenship and race without any any room left for misunderstanding I wouldn't advise that. You cannot unilaterally change the template without widespread consensus just to win your argument here. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I referered to other examples as WP:OSE states that wikipedia should be consisted. And the way the templates are treated should be the same in every article. As for the proposed alteration in the template, I think it's bold because it would eliminate the very reason of an argument such as this one. Finally I hope that more users will enter this discussion to get more opinions and point of views on the matter. PS I got your point, I agree that we disagree, and that, currently, it seems that a consensus has been reached on not including the data on the infobox. Good night and good luck!Hansi667 (talk) 19:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree for the ethnic percentages not being needed in the infobox . In many articles about states , such is the case , and for a good reason . Albeit i got confused and thought that the information was removed from the demographic section thus my revert . My opinion for what is worth . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for being reasonable. But please indent your comments for future reference. Athenean (talk) 17:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

This shows that Hansi667 understands that this field is for ethnicity and not for citizenship, yet s/he wants to add it on the basis it is "useful information" and also because such practice exists at the Spain article. Clearly, both of these reasons are not valid. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

....such practice exists not only at the Spain article but many others too; so if you are a genuine WP editor caring for the "validity of the reasons" it's about time you took your Greek blinkers off and concentrate a bit onto the others.213.151.89.71 (talk) 08:48, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Assuming you are not a sockpuppet, I would advise you to cut the personal attacks based on ethnicity. Yours is the lowest form of discussion. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the intervention, but the removal of the percentages was clearly explained by me [[1]] (as wrongly stated above that I didn't give a slightest explanation). In general if the numbers are supposed to present the percentages of the various ethnic groups but in fact are about something else (citizenship in this case) that's a serious reason for removal. The percentages are obviously wrong since a great part of the holders of Albanian citizenship are of Greek ethnicity. On the other hand, the members of the Muslim minority in Thrace are counted as ethnic Greeks.Alexikoua (talk) 13:23, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

In defence of myself, I have to say that I didn't say, in any way, that you didn't give an explanation (which would be a blatant lie on my behalf), but that your explanation didn't seem reasonable to me. These two statements have completely different meanings. Other than that I think that this discussion has reached an end, since no other WP editors shared their opinions on the issue.Hansi667 (talk) 10:10, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic Greeks from Albania in the census

There is a reference given in the article (here) that says that, according to the Greek Ministry of Interior there are 189,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania that hold EDTO (Special Identity Card for Co-ethnics). It also states that there are 154,000 ethnic Greek from former Soviet Union that are holders of a EDTO. So far so good. But, the reference in the third paragraph of page two states that: "EDTO holders are not included in the Ministry of Interior data on aliens.". This means that ethnic Greeks, from Albania and the former USSR, holding an EDTO are counted as Greeks, even though they are not full Greek citizens. Consequently the Albanian citizens' figures don't include ethnic Greeks holding an EDTO. My proposal is that the statement: "189,000 people of the total population of Albanian citizens were reported as ethnic Greeks from Northern Epirus in 2008." in the demographics section should be removed, as it is a misrepresentation of the data given in the reference.Hansi667 (talk) 10:10, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

But they are still Albanian citizens. So out of all the Albanian citizens in Greece, 189,000 are counted as ethnic Greeks. There is nothing wrong with the sentence. Athenean (talk) 18:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Please read the given reference again (page 2, third paragraph): "EDTO holders are not included in the Ministry of Interior data on aliens.". This statement clearly says that EDTO holders are not included in data for foreign citizens (i.e. aliens), and this means that they are included in the data for non aliens i.e. Greeks. It's clearer when dealing with EDTO holders that are citizens of a country of the former USSR (that could be Russia, Ukraine, Armenia etc): the reference states that there are 154,000 EDTO holders from former USSR countries. If EDTO holders were counted in the figures for foreign citizens, the number of foreign citizens from countries of the former USSR would exceed 154,000. But the official data from the 2001 census shows that this isn't the case since there are approximately 70,000 people from countries of the former USSR (7,742 from Armenia, 22,875 from Georgia, 2,256 from Kazakhstan, 46 from Kyrgyzstan, 350 from Belarus, 5,716 from Moldova, 802 from Uzbekistan, 13,616 from Ukraine, 17,535 from Russia, 10 from Tajikistan, 17 from Turkmenistan, 54 from Estonia, 37 from Latvia and 121 from Lithuania) which is less than the number of EDTO holders from the respective countries. Hansi667 (talk) 12:44, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

There are WAY to many photos in this article

Greece is a photogenic place, but this is just ridiculous. Athenean (talk) 05:28, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a general cleanup is needed. Although I did it several times in the past, it appears that various ips tend to add their favorite pics here and there.Alexikoua (talk) 07:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I've chopped a few photos that I think can be spared from the article. Feedback welcome. Dolescum (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

"Greek Orthodox Church" and "Eastern Orthodoxy" in Infobox

Some users around there have repeatedly mistaken the Institution (Greek Orthodox Church) for being a religion by itself, which is not true and invalid. In the Infobox, the 'Religion' section is about the religion, not institutions serving that religion. So, the proper could be "Eastern Orthodoxy". Unless I am missing something, I could very much ask the users to not confuse the religious institutions with the religions these institutions are serving. --SilentResident (talk) 17:37, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thessaloniki as the "co-capital"

This statement is misleading: "Thessaloniki being the second largest and referred to as the co-capital." Thessaloniki is not the co-capital of Greece in any administrative sense. It earned the name "co-capital" during the Byzantine Empire.--98.114.178.63 (talk) 11:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Debt as % of GDP nonsense

"Public debt was forecast, according to some estimates, to hit 120% of GDP during 2010." is nonsense, because debt is an absolute amount of money whereas GDP is a rate of money per unit time, usually reported on a per-year basis. Perhaps this text really is supposed to mean 120% of one year of GDP, i.e. 1.2 years of GDP or 14.4 months of GDP? If the source of the info says it wrong, does that mean WikiPedia must repeat the mistake even when it's obvious the source is wrong? 198.144.192.45 (talk) 03:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC) Twitter.Com/CalRobert (Robert Maas)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2015

+ The Best Olive Oil, in the World. +€. Amen 79.82.40.144 (talk) 16:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

 Not done That is not a Semi-protected edit request, it is an unsourced PoV - Arjayay (talk) 17:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Financial crisis

Why are Greek defaults hidden? The defaults are very significant, they are in many reliable references, why do Greek editors cleanse the Greece article of significant things that look bad for Greece? Spumuq (talq) 15:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

My thoughts, exactly.

Califate123 (talk) 17:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Economy section

I am not an expert editor of Greece, so I leave my comments here for review. The economy section reports "very high standard of living". But the infobox reports "41st" for GDP per capita (PPP). Besides, 2 sources provided do not directly support this statement. All the best! SSZ (talk) 00:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

"Standard of living" refers to income level (not HDI). My 2 cents! 68.199.100.166 (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) It is pathetic, really. --Prusan 09:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantikadam (talk • contribs)

This article doesn't respect the principle of neutrality

" (...) a high quality of life and a very high standard of living" - Joke of the year?

Whoever reads this article thinks Greece is all rainbows and unicorns. Even in the economy section the most recent financial troubles are omitted. It only states the "recovery" in 2014, failing to address the fact the economy got back in recession once again. Not to mention the defaults... Califate123 (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The UN HDI report lists Greece as having a "Very high" HDI, not "High". Please read the sources instead of the news. As for the rest of the comments, all I'm going say is that wikipedia is not a newspaper. Athenean (talk) 21:30, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The HDI measures human development, not quality of life (not quite the same thing). It doesn't include, for instance, the number of Greeks unemployed, nor the fact the GDP fell by 25% in the last years. Wikipedia is not a place for nationals of a country to hide the truth about their nation. Hiding facts is one of the things that brought Greece to where it is in the first place. Califate123 (talk) 12:52, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, why are people hiding facts that make Greece look bad? Spumuq (talq) 16:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Drop the ethnic profiling and bad faith assumptions before I report the both of you. "Califate" changed the "very high standard of living" to "high", even though the wikilink is to UN Human Development Index, which clearly lists in the "very high human development" category. This can be construed as falsification of sources, which is a major no-no. And FYI, the human development index does include economic information. Athenean (talk) 16:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place for nationals of a country to hide the truth about their nation.: I strongly suggest you stop this type of silly innuendo per WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Also don't forget if you attack the nationality of your fellow editors, they can also attack yours, and that can lead to discussions of really bad quality. Hiding facts is one of the things that brought Greece to where it is in the first place.: I suggest you stop the trolling. I also suggest you understand the concept of reliable sources and follow what the reliable sources say. If the reliable source says "high" HDI it is not up to you to erase the adjective "high" because you don't like it or because you have your own ideas about what the HDI does or does not include. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, why are people hiding facts that make Greece look bad? Is this an admission of what you have been trying to do all this time? Are you trying to make Greece look bad, to use your own words? I remind you that this is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda site. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:18, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

In this article, Economy section does not reflect current Economical situation of Greece, it is not up to date. We are in year 2015, there is not any info about the situation in 2015, the last sentence is of year 2014. Please keep the Article up to date. And please do not keep refering to Wiki links in order to seem credible (this is for the editors). --Prusan 09:27, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Δρ.Κ., focus on content, stop attacking me. Greece's ongoing economic problems are very notable, many references about this, and many readers come to the article looking for this, why are Greek editors hiding some of the most notable facts about Greece? I don't want to make Greece look bad, I just want our article to be honest. Spumuq (talq) 10:19, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

why are Greek editors hiding some of the most notable facts about Greece?: Once more stop your silly atacks against the Greek editors. Stop attacking editors based on their ethnicity otherwise I will give you a formal warning. focus on content, stop attacking me: Leave the nonsense warnings and follow your own advice. My comments did not atack you. They were a response to your silly insinuations. You should not put WP:RECENT news in the lead. Also in your edit you claim In 2012, Greece had the biggest sovereign debt default ever,... which is just the opinion of a columnist. There was no default in 2012. It was a debt haircut. The opinion of the columnist that it was a default is just a political opinion which is not supported by the majority of sources. As far as the rest of your edit it does not belong in the lead per WP:NOTNEWS. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

What Dr.K. said. There was no default in 2012, and the 2015 stuff is *very* recent and the situation is constantly changing. This is not material that is appropriate for the lede of a country article. Athenean (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

It is quite unfortunate that your beliefs directly contradict what multiple reliable sources say. Can you provide a reason why Greece's record-breaking default, and chronic economic problems, cannot be mentioned in our article about Greece? You mentioned WP:LEDE, but the content that you're edit-warring to remove fully complies with WP:LEDE. You mentioned recentism, but this isn't a recentism issue (and much more trivial recent things are allowed to remain in the article, as long as they look good for Greece). Do you have any other excuses for removing coverage of Greece's financial fuckups? I note that the rest of the Economy section also presents a surprisingly rosy picture, which is quite incompatible with the tone of independent sources. bobrayner (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any other excuses for removing coverage of Greece's financial fuckups? Your economic analysis and terminology are neither competent nor neutral and that's being kind. Your simplistic interpretations of the Greek economic collapse and your attacks on other editors constitute very low quality arguments. This is just simplistic, neo-liberal POV which if left unchallenged will damage the article. This POV is also coupled with personal attacks and expletives which demonstrate tendentious editing. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Totally. And if it not a case of WP:RECENT then perhaps someone can explain to me why it was never ever in the lede in 2008, 2009, 2010, etc.. My opinion is that desires to have the crisis in the lede is just smug rejoice over a situation for which the EU as a body is ultimately responsible through its authoritarian bureaucracy and stealth quest to achieve full central European hegemony. Naphtha Termix (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

No one is trolling, so don't come up with that reductio ad absurdum. The % of people living under the national poverty line has RISEN from 20% to 40%! 40% of Greeks are technically poor! How can this translate as "very high living standards"?! And once again, HDI isn't about quality of life. Do you consider, for instance, Croatia and Cuba as having a "VERY high quality of life" just because they have a very high HDI?? (Personal attack removed) The entire world already knows it is far from having a "very high quality of life". Califate123 (talk) 15:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Transport

I was quite surprised to find almost nothing about the ferry boat system, either here or at Transport in Greece. Isn't it the main mode of transportation between islands? Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Guy Verhofstadt

I think a sub section in Economy section about Mr.Guy Verhofstadt's speech could be written. --Prusan (talk) 06:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Why? I mean, Personally I agree with (most of) what he said and this is pretty much the same stuff I'd like to tell Tsipras to his face, but a political speech is by definition not a WP:RS. What he said about privileges of certain groups in Greece etc. can be sourced to more reliable sources. Constantine ✍ 09:55, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Oppose the proposal. Not notable of a speech as it is nothing more than a WP:NEWSEVENT. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I think it is important as the fact that it is the first time a prime misinter of an EU country got accused, attacked so directly and strongly. It is noteworthy --Prusan (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

"first time a prime misinter of an EU country got accused, attacked so directly and strongly" is pure nonsense. I know of no politician who has not been "directly and strongly attacked by somebody", usually with good reason. And if it reflects poorly on Tsipras and his government and would be perhaps suitable for inclusion there, that is still not a reason to see this as characteristic of Greece as a whole. This is not only pure WP:Recentism, it is downright unscientific and biased to take an attack on a specific person/party (which as a political statement and piece of rhetoric is inherently non-neutral either way) and try to apply it to the whole country. Constantine ✍ 14:02, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is not scientific but it is still important and yes it is more suitable for the article Tsipras not Greece.--Prusan (talk) 14:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

20th Century Update

this statement is misleading " a region with a large native Greek population at the time..." the time is not definite. After the 1919 Smyrna occupation there was a population transport to Smyrna from Greece affecting the demographics. For pre 1919 situation See. For more information see --Prusan (talk) 14:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

change the number of inhabited islands from 227 to 127?

I 'd like to change the number of inhabited islands from 227 to 127 Kampanario (talk) 16:07, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Update in Economy Section

I strongly recommend an update for Greece Economy --Prusan (talk) 13:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

ps.the politics and introduction sections will need an overhaul as there will be questions about the soverenigty of Greece in recent circumstances

Food Shortage

...Food companies warned that the country will start to run out of beef and other imported meats within days and could face serious food shortages by the end of the month unless the banking system is reopened, and firms can pay foreign suppliers once again. Source. Greece article will need an overhaul especially on "high living standarts". --Prusan (talk) 13:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you are a little bit mixed up: First of all there is no food shortage in Greece, never was, never will (at least by todays standards). Now, indeed Greece even in the current economic crisis, is among the 30 top countries in the world in almost every indicator, whether that is GDP per capita, HDI, life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy rate. All these indicators are the prime reason whether a country has a high standard of living or not. When a country like Greece can still offer to its citizens a life expectancy of over 80 years (among the highest in the world), when it can offer an infant mortality rate of less than 3 deaths per 1000 births, when it can offer the 29th highest HDI and a per capita income of 27,000 USD, well i would say this is pretty much high standard of living. 178.128.236.166 (talk) 17:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Yet, 60% of the population is in poverty or on its way to it. Califate123 (talk) 20:35, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Yet, thats your own number out of your own head. The 60% of poverty levels you mention are not valid not even in Ethiopia or Chad, let alone a developed EU country...178.128.236.166 (talk) 09:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-30/recovery-60-greeks-live-or-below-poverty-levelsCalifate123! (talk) 16:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC) Califate123! is a sock account of Califate123 Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2015

Please change the following text : Vangelis, a worldwide famous Greek composer of the late 20th century and early 21st century.

to :

Vangelis, a world famous Greek composer of the late 20th century and early 21st century.

This is because "world famous" is an accepted English expression. Paul olley (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for your help. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Why is that gallery there anyway? It looks completely random and unprincipled, like a dumping ground somebody has been shifting any old random photo to that used to be somewhere else in the article and no longer fit there. I think I'm going to remove the whole thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Last paragraph of Migration section needs citations, update

I don't know how to add the citation needed notation. And as recent news reports have clearly shown, illegal immigrants have been entering from Turkey by crossing the waters to Lesbos and Kos. Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 03:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Template documentation is here: template:cn Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Eurozone entry section

This section is way too long and filled with incomprehensible jargon. I doubt any of our readers know what ESA97 is. A brief 2-3 sentence mention is sufficient, so I propose to remove it except for maybe the first few sentences. Athenean (talk) 23:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. That's what mainspace articles are for. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:10, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I put back in the date Greece joined the eurozone, which was six months before the currency adoption. Good riddance to the rest of it. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:20, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

2.7 World Wars and emerging republic (19th century)

The title clearly should read 20th century. Would correct it but I can't seem to find the edit button... 186.79.30.84 (talk) 01:21, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Many thanks. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:30, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2015

81.240.29.218 (talk) 20:45, 8 December 2015 (UTC) Please change it shares land borders with Albania to the northwest, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north to it shares land borders with Albania to the northwest, the FYROM and Bulgaria to the north because the Hellenic Republic only recognizes FYROM as an act of denouncement of it's theft of history and culture and as an act of exercising its full rights as a sovereign state.

References

Not done: Please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Favonian (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Financial Crisis

Would the financial crisis be significant enough to include somewhere in the lead? I don't quite know the policies on talking about such recent things in articles. Also, is the referendum worth mentioning? --Vamanospests (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

We had this discussion multiple times before and the answer is no. Dr. K. 03:47, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no financial crisis in Greece. It enjoys high living standarts and very high income per capita. Just like Norway. 195.87.42.210 (talk) 13:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC).

Well there is a financial problem and the standard of living or per capita income is not like norways but still cannot be compared to that of turkeys. In fact greece even with the new human development index just published for 2015 is the 29th most advanced/developed country in the world and of course has indeed a very high standard of living and high per capita income. Of course, if compared to the likes of countries like turkey then i would say the standard of living is out of the league. And one final note: it doesnt help a lot when someone is provocative 149.210.111.163 (talk) 16:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Great self esteem, unemployment rate shows which country enjoys better life standards. (Prusan (talk) 14:46, 24 March 2016 (UTC))

Talk:Hellas

A comment there asked to mention this here. It's just a matter of WP:UE in my view, but I am happy to oblige. --dab (𒁳) 12:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)