Talk:Amir Khusrau

this was not said by Amir Khusrao. It was said by a Mughal emperor when he first laid eyes on Kashmir.

I have heard this too, in the days of my youth. But it's most probably one of those apocryphal stories. Mughal emperors were not exactly in the habit of spontaneously breaking into verse.

That being said, does anyone know whether it was in fact said/written by Khusro? Any reference or citation? Should it just be taken out? --Sarabseth 23:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am indeed baffled at this! Agar Firdaus Bar Ru E Zameenast! Hameenast O Hameenast O Hameenast a couplet written by Urfi Shirazi during his second visit to India and Kashmir in Nooruddeen Muhammad Jahangir's camp at Nishat Bagh is being shown here as a couplet by Ameer Khusrau Dehlavi, a Dari poet who was born during the reign of Nasiruddeen Mahmood of the Slave Dynasty and died during the reign of Muhammad Bin Tughlaq. Incidentally this same couplet is engraved on New Delhi's Red Fort at the Deewaan e Khaas court's arch which was alongwith other buildings in the Red Fort ordered to be built by Shah Jahan.

Please editors of Wikipedia, have this misinformation removed from this article! The spirit of Ameer Khusrau shall send you blessings in thanks from Heaven!Lutfullah (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)LutfullahReply

My eyes wonder with disbelief at Wikipedia's contents when it comes to do with India and its people! Oh Allah The Merciful The Benevolent! Here under the heading Persian Poetry of Ameer Khurau of Delhi you have printed and translated a verse written by Naaser Khusro of Isfahan, Iran. O editors of Wikipedia! Wake up and have experts in Persian literature verify my point! See the entire printed/manuscript copies of Ameer Khusrau's collections and you will not find this rare piece of art in them. Look for Naaser Khusro's works Deevaan (collection) or Kulliyaat (Complete Works) published in Iran and elsewhere and India Office Library and Libraries at Cambridge and Oxford in the UK and you shall find these very lines therein. Lutfullah (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)LutfullahReply

``was an Indian musician, scholar and poet of Persian descent`` excuse me `of pesian descent`?.. doesn't it sound weird, how come a son of a turkic officer and rajput woman becomes `a poet of persian descent`, please explain me that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.226.101.111 (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

from father side he belonged to the Hazara e Lachin, a turkic-persian speaking group. today we have the hazaras in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran who are turkic but speak persian. so he was an indian hazara poet and musician. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.241.97 (talk) 04:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

This attribution to Hazara is totally unfounded and erroneous. It is a product of Hazara nationalist who are seeking to claim parts of history and to separate themselves from the Mongol invasion. In the Farsi version of the article thid falsehood is claimed inside the Wikipedia article, without any credible reference. There was no Hazara presence in Balkh prior to Mongol invasions and even less likely was the idea of a Mongol so fluent in Persian as to produce poetry. It is pure nonsense by Hazara nationalists. 2001:67C:2628:647:6:0:0:42 (talk) 17:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Can you give your source about him being Hazara? AA73 (talk) 12:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The Hazara nationalists have no sources that are credible so they rely on countless attributions. They seek to eve claim Buddhist heritage of Bamiyan. 2001:67C:2628:647:6:0:0:42 (talk) 17:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't see how the edits by 77.178.248.71 that Beh-naam reversed were "nonesense".

Both of you need to grow up. There is no point whatsoever going back and forth reversing each other's edits endlessly. In the spirit of wikipedia, let other editors adjudicate this dispute between you. --Sarabseth 16:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Message for Anoshirawan:

If it is true that "His father was from Balkh, Balkh is a Persian city. and he had no knowledge of any turkic language", it should be possible to support that by a citation. Please do not revert back without a proper citation. You can't cite an elliptical couplet by Khusro as proof of autobiographical facts. --Sarabseth 13:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Amir Khesrao himself claimed I am not a Turkic speaker and now you are telling me what others say. --Anoshirawan 04:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you understand the statement: "You can't cite an elliptical couplet by Khusro as proof of autobiographical facts"?

Do you not have any reference for your claim that "His father was from Balkh, Balkh is a Persian city. and he had no knowledge of any turkic language" other than the couplet you cite?

Do you think this request was unreasonable: "Please do not revert back without a proper citation."

I request you to consider the issue with a cool head. --Sarabseth 12:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The word "Turk" should be linked to Turkic peoples and not to Turkish people. The Turkish people are the citizens of Turkey, while Amir Khusraw was a descendant of Persianized Central Asian Turco-Mongols. I think that Beh-nam's reference to his poetry should be used as a source for the fact that he was Persian- and Hindustani-speaking and did not understand "Turkish" (most probably Chagatai language).

Enough is enough.

You are obviously intent on ignoring the problems that multiple editors have with the reverts you keep on making. Invited to discuss the matter, you have chosen to dismiss the concerns rather than address the issues raised.

If you repeat your revert one more time, I am going to report you to Wiki administrators and ask that you be blocked from editing this article.

I'm sorry it has come to this, but you don't seem to have left any choice. --Sarabseth 22:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Apart from everything else you violated the three-revert_rule on August 31/Sep 1 when you reverted this article 5 times within 24 hours. --Sarabseth 22:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Update: After he reverted again, I did report him (for the 3-RR violation). He has been blocked for 72 hours. --Sarabseth 14:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Of course Amir Khusrow was of Turkic origin. The Encyclopaedia Iranica writes:

• "... AMÈR K¨OSROW DEHLAVÈ, NAÚSáER-AL-DÈN ABU÷L-H®ASAN (651-725/1253-1325), the “Parrot of India,” the greatest Persian-writing poet of medieval India. Son of Amir Sayf-al-d^n Mahámu@d, a Turkish officer, and an Indian mother, he was born in Patiali and early displayed his poetical talent, encouraged by his maternal grandfather, ¿Ema@d-al-molk. ..." [1]

However, this article overemphasizes his Turkic origin. Amir Khursow was born to an Indian mother, and he grew up in an environment that was most certainly Persianate, that's why he chose to write in Persian. By the way: this article claims that he belonged to the Turkish people which is wrong. His father belonged to Central Asian Turkic peoples, that's a different thing. The "Turkish people" are modern citizens of Turkey and mostly descendants of early Anatolian and European peoples who were later linguistically Turkicized. The Turkic peoples of Central Asia speak different Turkic languages (mostly from the Qarluq language family - as opposed to the Oghuz languages), and are descendants of various original Turkic, ancient Iranic, and Mongol peoples. Amir Khusrow's father beonged to these Central Asian Turks. In modern sense, Amir Khusrow would be comparable to modern Hazaras of Afghanistan: a Persian-speaking people of medieval Turkic and Mongol ancestry.

Please have the courtesy to sign your contributions.

Whether the article "overemphasizes his Turkic origin" is debatable. And has been debated here at great length in the past.

However, that's not what the dispute over Anoshirawan's edit war campaign is about. As has been made clear repeatedly, the dispute other editors have with Anoshirawan is over:

a) invoking an elliptical couplet written by Khusro as autobiographical testimony, and using it to trump material supported by multiple cited sources

b) refusing to discuss the matter here when requested to

c) refusing to yield to the consensus of other editors --Sarabseth 16:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

82.83.139.81 said

However, this article overemphasizes his Turkic origin.

and

By the way: this article claims that he belonged to the Turkish people which is wrong.

There are only two sentences in the article which contain the character string "Turk", and both occur in this paragraph:

Amir Khusro, a Hindustani Turk was born of a Turkic father, Saif ad-Dīn Mahmoud, who was one of the chiefs of the Lachin tribe of the Karakhitais of Kush, Transoxania[6][7] and a Rajput (Rawal) mother, in India.[8] His grandfather bore the name of Turk.[9].

One, the article clearly does not claim that he belonged to the Turkish people

Two, it is hard to see how two simple statements of fact ("a Hindustani Turk was born of a Turkic father" and "His grandfather bore the name of Turk") constitute overemphasizing his Turkic origin. --Sarabseth 17:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I was not talking about Anoshirwan who has also messed up the Hotaki dynasty article. I am talking about the current article. The word "Turk" in the sentence is linked to Turkish people, that's wrong. It should be linked to Turkic peoples. And it is not needed to say that he was a "Hindustani Turk", that "his father was a Turk", and "that his grandfather was called Turk". This is unnecessairy. It's enough to mention that his father was a Turkic general. We do not know if he himself identified himself as a Turk or not and it is irrelevant anyway. People back then did not idenhtify themselvs in terms of ethnicity, except for a very few cases. Like in Iranica, the article should mention that his father was a Turk (with link to Turkic peoples!) and that his mother was Indian. The expression "Hindustani Turk" and the reference to his grandfather's given name (totally irrelevant here) should be removed. That's all.

Then maybe you should have started a new topic, and not posted your comment under "Warning to Anoshirawan". --Sarabseth 18:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

This does not change the fact that certain things in the article are wrong, and this includes the false claim that he belonged to the Turkish people (= citizens of the Turkish Republic), and the irrelevant reference to the alleged name of his grandfather. Even the source you have attached to it, that of Dr. Iraj Bashiri, explains in detail that his father belonged to the Khitan people - to the Kara-Khitan Khanate (who, btw, were not Turks but Turkicized Mongols). Someone should fix that problem.

Why do you stoutly refuse to sign your comments? To the point where when a bot adds your IP address to your comments, you go in and remove it. What's up with that? --Sarabseth 03:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's of no importance whether I sign my comments in the talk page or not. What matters is that the current article is in a miserable condition, and that its introduction contains major mistakes. IPs and newly registered users are not allowed to edit the text. And established users, such as yourself, do not want to correct the mistakes, and instead worry about other people not signing their comments in the talk page. Anoshirwan may be a POV pusher, but - as it seems to me - you are not different.

This may be difficult for you to understand, but I'm not going to go in and make changes based on things I do not know anything about.

If you feel so strongly about the state of this article, why don't you become a registered user. Especially given how active you are, making multiple edits every day to multiple articles. Is there some particular reason why you feel the need to hide behind an IP address (that you are not even willing to allow to appear on this page)?

And if you're going to make allegations, and you care at all about integrity and honor, you should be prepared to substantiate them. How, pray, am I a POV pusher? --Sarabseth 02:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you admit that you have no knowledge of these toppics, then WHY do you edit these articles?! If you want to learn the difference between Turkic peoples and Turkish people, then just read the respective articles. Do you want me to explain to you the difference between Germanic peoples and German people as well?! Or the difference between Iranic peoples and Persian people?! I have also given you a link from the Encyclopaedia Iranica, the standard reference work for Iranian and Oriental studies. What else do you want?! If you have no idea of the toppic, then please - with all due respect - leave the article to others and those who know what they are talking about. And do not worry about Anoshirwan anymore, because (as you yourself have already admitted) there is not much difference between you and him.

Dear 82.83.152.225/82.82.133.241/82.83.139.81/82.83.153.142, it has obviously escaped your notice that the article is not about the difference between "Turkic peoples and Turkish people". If it doesn't hugely discommode you, I'll continue to make edits on those aspects of the article that I do know something about.

I should have known that you're the kind of coward who will make allegations about someone else, and then refuse to either substantiate or withdraw them.

I've come to the end of my patience with your nonsense, so I won't be responding any more. --Sarabseth 14:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Stop accusing people you do not know, Sarabseth. I cannot use my account right now, because of a larger process that is currently being investigated by some admins and affects other Wikipedians as well. It's because of the ban of some Wikipedians and alledged sockpuppet abuse, which was obviously wrong. I do not want to hide my IP - that's all you need to know. In regards of your edits, most of your edits in this article were about Nasir Khusrow's origin, a toppic you have no knowledge about as you have already admitted. You claim that he was a citizen of Turkey (in fact, that's what you have written in the article), despite the fcat that Turkey was created 800 years after Nasir Khusrow! This is POV pushing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.152.225 (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Amir Khosow is mostly known because of his Persian poetry and his Persian qawwali ghazals. He is regarded the most important Persian poet of India next to Iqbal)" is a POV statement.

Khusrau is an iconic figure precisely because of his multi-dimensional genius. His contributions to Hindustani classical music are seminal. To say he is "mostly known because of his Persian poetry" is certainly disputable.

Highlighting poetry to the exclusion of music in the first sentence makes it unnecessarily argumentative.

Far better to say just that he "was an iconic figure in the cultural history of the Indian subcontinent", and talk about both the poetry and the music after that.--Sarabseth (talk) 11:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

It is indeed amazing and moreover shocking to see that a world-class information pool such as the Wikipedia, whose authenticity is unquestioned these days, can depict page from a miniature copy of Nizami Ganjawi's Khamseh as a work of Amir Khusrau Dehlavi to make an introductory gesture on Amir Khusrau!

Ameer Khusrau did write his own Mukhammas or Khamsa as you rightly quote in the article but he had nothing to do with Nizami's Khamsa at all.Lutfullah (talk) 09:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)LutfullahReply

The Met disagrees with you – cacahuate ^talk 04:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Dear Cacahuate, with great respect for your illustrated personality, I request very humbly to you to revisit the web-page of The met again! It very aptly and clearly describes the miniature as from the KHAMSA OF AMEER KHUSRAU! NOWHERE DOES IT ATTRIBUTE THIS MINIATURE AS FROM THE KHAMSA OF NIZAMI GANJAWI!. I hope you take my point and request the editorial committee/board of Wikipedia to change the text of the introduction by deleting the words Khamsa e Nizami and correctly inserting the words Khamsa e Amir KhusroLutfullah (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)LutfullahReply

I've changed your first comment back to its original statement, it's better not to alter your comments to change their original meaning once people have responded to them. You were under the impression that it was a page from Nizami's Khamsa, when I showed you that it is from Amir's version of his khamsa (the Met website also states Amir Khusrau Dihlavi wrote his reprise of Nizami's Khamsa at the end of the thirteenth century). A quick Google search shows that it it often referred to as the "Khamsa-e-Nizami by Amir Khusro". Also later in the WP article it states "Amir Khusro was the author of a Khamsa which emulated that of the earlier Persian-language poet Nizami Ganjavi". Regarding editing though, you're welcome to edit the article, everyone's an editor here. – cacahuate ^talk 15:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Cacahuate! Hats off to thee! I respect people with insight with all my heart. Please however get the introduction edited yourself or from Wikipedia's qualified editors to give the article authenticity. I am afraid, I am not bold yet enough to do major edits here.Lutfullah (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)LutfullahReply

Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Delhi workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Delhi or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 08:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have cleaned up the translation of that piece--making the lines correspond and, hopefully, improved the translation to be more faithful to the original.

--iFaqeer (talk) 10:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

I believe the photograph in the "Major life events in chronological order" is mis-captioned, and should probably be removed from this article

The caption for the same photograph in the Nizamuddin Auliya article identifies the tomb on the left as "Jahan Ara's tomb". I think that's right, but it certainly isn't Amir Khusro's tomb. As you face the photograph, Amir Khusro's tomb would lie around a corner to the left. Since the photograph depicts the Nizamuddin dargah but not Khusro's tomb, maybe it's a little off-topic here? --Sarabseth (talk) 19:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Going ahead and deleting the photograph.--Sarabseth (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have reverted the unexplained deletion of sources. Tajik (talk) 23:05, 21 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Our famous poet's life and times, and legacy, all is connected to India, where Persian is pronounced in the Eastern style (similar to Afghanistan), not as in Official Tehrani Persian. I found, on a Google search, 19,000 occurrences for "Amir Khusrau", and only 4,000 for "Amir Khusrow". The former is how it is pronounced in Hindi-Urdu. Actually, the spelling with -ow may have nothing to do with Western Persian; it may be an Anglicised spelling, taking the -ow from words such as how now brown cow etc. Anglicisation can have strange results, e.g. ṭhākur > Tagore. In any case, it is unfair not to include the Khusrau spelling when introducing his name, so I have made a small emendation. Jakob37 (talk) 02:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

p.s. I have also changed the Hindi spelling to reflect the correct traditional pronunciation; after all, he is part of classical literature. I suspect the common Hindi spelling ख़ुसरो is simply modeled on Khusrow/Khusro by people who were not very familiar with Persian. I have no objection to it being added that ख़ुसरो is the common spelling nowadays. Jakob37 (talk) 03:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

I want to resurface the discussion of editing the articles name to Amir Khusrao. If there are no reservations to this change, I will move forward with the change. Thank you! Apollo1203 (talk) 12:46, 21 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

The Muslims had a certain knowledge of the rites of cremation as practiced by the Hindus, and Amir Khusrau in particular, who lived in India, sometimes alludes to the custom of satti, the burning of widows.

Learn from the Hindu how to die of love— It is not easy to enter the fire while alive.

He also describes sunrise with a related image: 

The Hindu Night has died, and the sun Has kindled the fire to burn that Hindu

http://ia341328.us.archive.org/3/items/AStudyAboutThePersianCulturalLegacyAndBackgroundOfTheSufiMystics/PersianPoetRumi.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 09:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

The article say he was born in Patiala near Etah - Patiala is Punjab separated by some five hundred kilometers Etah, which is eastern UP. This needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saliltoday (talk • contribs) 07:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

The article contradicts itself, as follows: Early life and background: Amir Khusrow was born in Patiali near Etah in northern India. Major life events in chronological order: Khusrow was born in Badaun near Etah...

I believe this needs to be corrected. 220.239.130.178 (talk) 09:59, 4 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

This article is structurally incoherent. Needs to be rewritten. Lacks references. Izmi (talk) 13:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

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Hello everyone. After carrying out a minor edit to the page a lot of information was lost. I'm unable to revert it back to what it was previously, not sure if this is a bug with Wikipedia, when I compare with the version before my change, click edit, it doesn't give me all the subsections within the edit. If someone else can give it a go, or if an admin has rollback access then try that. Sorry!

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Friday Evening Qawali at Dargah Salim Chisti, Fatehpur Sikri, UP, India.theora.ogv

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:22, 30 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

I suggest we combine Amir Khusrow to this page to adjust the title of the page to Amir Khusrau. When doing a search of his name, majority of the results show Amir Khusrau versus Khusrow. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have copied the comment above from Talk:Amir Khusrow (formerly Talk:Amir Khusrau) following the swap of these names, per the RM below, so that that talk page can be made to redirect to this one to preserve incoming links. Colin M (talk) 20:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Dear authors,

the misspelling of the sultans surnamed Tughluq (to be pronounced with two oo's) as “Tughlaq” with an A is very common in historical literature, but it is outright wrong from the point of view of language. I have asked Prof. Semih Tezcan, an expert on Turkic languages, if he knew any language in which “Tughlaq” would make sense, and he said that “Tughluq” made sense in many Turkic languages, but there is no Turkic language in which “Tughlaq” would make sense.

“Tughluq” means standard-bearer or standard-keeper. It consists of tugh = “banner” and the suffix -luq (or -liq after bright vowels like e and i), which corresponds to English “-ness”, “-dom”, “-ity” etc. Tugh-luq is the office of “banner-dom”, i.e. “banner keeping” and raising the banner in battle, and therefore someone who is responsible for the soldiers who follow his banner.

It would be nice if you allowed me to correct the vowal. --Curryfranke (talk) 12:54, 28 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

His name was preserved as تغلق, T-gh-l-q, there is no vowel. 83.254.160.80 (talk) 23:18, 7 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've greatly improved the formatting of the references in the article by standardizing the formatting, giving proper author attribution, adding convenience links, etc. They still need work and I invite further collaboration.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 16:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply